Asked by the Customer on 25-02-2016 19:37:10
Question posted in the General Law category relating to Gauteng
Question posted in the General Law category relating to Gauteng
Hi
9 months ago my daughter was murdered. Between 11 June to 10 Sept my son-in-law, in whose name the City of Johannesburg account is, made 1 payment on the electricity account which was already in arrears. On 10 September my son-in-law was arrested and his sister moved onto the property and made another payment in October.
End of Nov she moved out and we, the grandparents moved into the property to look after our grandchildren (one of which is disabled, in a wheelchair). We did not know the status of the utilities bill or have any invoices from the City of Joburg for the utilities bill because we did not have access to the post box where it was being sent. Eventually we managed to get an invoice which showed that as at 15 October the total due (arrears) was R27,417.54 + interest of R127.63 + the current charges of R3104,25 = R30 649.00.
On 22nd Dec I tried to make a payment at two of the City Power offices but they were offline (the whole week before Christmas). They advised me to make a payment at Checkers or Pic ‘n Pay, which I did but it did not reflect on their system in time, so the day before Christmas they switched our electricity off until 27 Dec when it came back on.
On 11 Jan 2016, someone from Joburg Water came to switch the water off, but my husband managed to stop them and was told that we must go to the Joburg Water office in Selby and pay the account. When we got there on 12 Jan they said the account was already with their legal dept in Braamfontein and we must go there to sort it out. My husband went there and managed to explain to the consultant what our circumstances were.
According to them, someone (the suspects sister) had made an instalment arrangement with them to pay the arrears account in September, but which had not been honoured. So when we came along with a similar request to make an arrangement they were not very willing to do it. After much consultation with the consultant and his supervisor, they agreed to an Acknowledgement of Debt (which my husband signed, but nowhere does his name appear on the document), if we paid R10 000 immediately and thereafter 24 instalments of R956.49 to cover the amount outstanding which stood at R32,955.73 on 13 January. We paid the amount of R10 000 just to keep the water on, and probably the electricity too.
Since then, I have paid the first instalment of R956.49 and an estimate of the current charges of R3104.25 (for Dec/Jan) on 12 January. In total we have paid R19 060.74 to date out of our savings. Due to the murder and fraud investigation, SAPS informed the Masters Office of Gauteng to not allow an Executor to be appointed while investigations were still taking place.
My apologies for the long explanation, but firstly we are pensioners and cannot afford a lawyer, but we feel that though we are living in my daughter’s house to look after the children and are prepared to pay the current charges, that we are unfairly being ‘held to ransom’ by having to pay the arrears as well for which we do not feel responsible, lest the water and lights will summarily be cut off if we default ! We believe that the Acknowledgement of Debt document is not a valid document, but again we feel under obligation to pay the arrears for the sake of the children while we are having to support the children with no income for them.
By law can we be held liable for this debt ?
Please advise.
9 months ago my daughter was murdered. Between 11 June to 10 Sept my son-in-law, in whose name the City of Johannesburg account is, made 1 payment on the electricity account which was already in arrears. On 10 September my son-in-law was arrested and his sister moved onto the property and made another payment in October.
End of Nov she moved out and we, the grandparents moved into the property to look after our grandchildren (one of which is disabled, in a wheelchair). We did not know the status of the utilities bill or have any invoices from the City of Joburg for the utilities bill because we did not have access to the post box where it was being sent. Eventually we managed to get an invoice which showed that as at 15 October the total due (arrears) was R27,417.54 + interest of R127.63 + the current charges of R3104,25 = R30 649.00.
On 22nd Dec I tried to make a payment at two of the City Power offices but they were offline (the whole week before Christmas). They advised me to make a payment at Checkers or Pic ‘n Pay, which I did but it did not reflect on their system in time, so the day before Christmas they switched our electricity off until 27 Dec when it came back on.
On 11 Jan 2016, someone from Joburg Water came to switch the water off, but my husband managed to stop them and was told that we must go to the Joburg Water office in Selby and pay the account. When we got there on 12 Jan they said the account was already with their legal dept in Braamfontein and we must go there to sort it out. My husband went there and managed to explain to the consultant what our circumstances were.
According to them, someone (the suspects sister) had made an instalment arrangement with them to pay the arrears account in September, but which had not been honoured. So when we came along with a similar request to make an arrangement they were not very willing to do it. After much consultation with the consultant and his supervisor, they agreed to an Acknowledgement of Debt (which my husband signed, but nowhere does his name appear on the document), if we paid R10 000 immediately and thereafter 24 instalments of R956.49 to cover the amount outstanding which stood at R32,955.73 on 13 January. We paid the amount of R10 000 just to keep the water on, and probably the electricity too.
Since then, I have paid the first instalment of R956.49 and an estimate of the current charges of R3104.25 (for Dec/Jan) on 12 January. In total we have paid R19 060.74 to date out of our savings. Due to the murder and fraud investigation, SAPS informed the Masters Office of Gauteng to not allow an Executor to be appointed while investigations were still taking place.
My apologies for the long explanation, but firstly we are pensioners and cannot afford a lawyer, but we feel that though we are living in my daughter’s house to look after the children and are prepared to pay the current charges, that we are unfairly being ‘held to ransom’ by having to pay the arrears as well for which we do not feel responsible, lest the water and lights will summarily be cut off if we default ! We believe that the Acknowledgement of Debt document is not a valid document, but again we feel under obligation to pay the arrears for the sake of the children while we are having to support the children with no income for them.
By law can we be held liable for this debt ?
Please advise.
Message from the Attorney
Posted by Att. Patrick on 25-02-2016 20:10:25
Hi there and thank you for your question,
I'm very sorry to hear about your situation. I hope that it all comes right eventually.
Legally, your daughter's estate (as the owner of the property) is responsible for the payment of the rates and taxes, and water and electricity accounts for the property. The executor will often make arrangements with the City to hold over the account until the executor is able to find money in the estate to pay the accounts. Otherwise, the executor will be forced to ask the heirs to pay the accounts themselves knowing that the executor will eventually reimburse the heirs for all the money they have spent.
Your situation is unfortunately more complicated than that because (i) of the SAPS and the Master; and (ii) because both of the accounts were in arrears and you were forced to dig into your own pockets to keep the lights on.
Unfortunately the way that the City has acted (holding you randsom) is the only way they work when there are arrears on an account, and when the instalment payments have not been made. They literally say "Pay now, or we turn off tonight". The only thing that people can do is pay ... so you're not alone.
If your husband's name is not on the acknowledgement of debt (AOD) then in my opinion the AOD is not enforceable as against your husband. From looking at the document (without any further evidence) a third party needs to be able to read your husband's name and understand what is meant by the document.
Look, you're in a difficult situation. You're being forced to pay the debts to keep the lights on, but you will have a claim against the executor for a full refund of your money. You have to keep doing what you're doing for the sake of the children. Otherwise, you must move out of the house and stop paying ... then let the City disconnect the water and electricity. But that might not be the best situation.
In my opinion there is NO reason why SAPS are allowed to tell the Master to hold off appointing an executor for the estate. None whatsoever. The "investigation" could take 3 years? Then what?
You need to visit the Master's office and demand to speak to the Master himself, and ask him to appoint an executor for the estate. The executor must take control over the estate to protect the assets. The Master could make it a condition that the executor won't be allowed to make any distributions from the estate. In that way, the estate will be protected.
If the Master doesn't want to assist, my advice is that you should hire an attorney to represent the children and he must go speak to the Master.
If there is a part of the answer which you need more advice on, or clarity please continue in this same thread instead of opening a new question.
Att. Patrick
Please remember this is a dialog if you have follow up questions please use the REPLY button and ask. If I did not answer the question you thought you were asking, please respond with the specific question you wanted answered. I hope you found my answer helpful, and you have finished asking your questions, please click on the GREEN ACCEPT button in order to mark the question as closed.
I'm very sorry to hear about your situation. I hope that it all comes right eventually.
Legally, your daughter's estate (as the owner of the property) is responsible for the payment of the rates and taxes, and water and electricity accounts for the property. The executor will often make arrangements with the City to hold over the account until the executor is able to find money in the estate to pay the accounts. Otherwise, the executor will be forced to ask the heirs to pay the accounts themselves knowing that the executor will eventually reimburse the heirs for all the money they have spent.
Your situation is unfortunately more complicated than that because (i) of the SAPS and the Master; and (ii) because both of the accounts were in arrears and you were forced to dig into your own pockets to keep the lights on.
Unfortunately the way that the City has acted (holding you randsom) is the only way they work when there are arrears on an account, and when the instalment payments have not been made. They literally say "Pay now, or we turn off tonight". The only thing that people can do is pay ... so you're not alone.
If your husband's name is not on the acknowledgement of debt (AOD) then in my opinion the AOD is not enforceable as against your husband. From looking at the document (without any further evidence) a third party needs to be able to read your husband's name and understand what is meant by the document.
Look, you're in a difficult situation. You're being forced to pay the debts to keep the lights on, but you will have a claim against the executor for a full refund of your money. You have to keep doing what you're doing for the sake of the children. Otherwise, you must move out of the house and stop paying ... then let the City disconnect the water and electricity. But that might not be the best situation.
In my opinion there is NO reason why SAPS are allowed to tell the Master to hold off appointing an executor for the estate. None whatsoever. The "investigation" could take 3 years? Then what?
You need to visit the Master's office and demand to speak to the Master himself, and ask him to appoint an executor for the estate. The executor must take control over the estate to protect the assets. The Master could make it a condition that the executor won't be allowed to make any distributions from the estate. In that way, the estate will be protected.
If the Master doesn't want to assist, my advice is that you should hire an attorney to represent the children and he must go speak to the Master.
If there is a part of the answer which you need more advice on, or clarity please continue in this same thread instead of opening a new question.
Att. Patrick
Please remember this is a dialog if you have follow up questions please use the REPLY button and ask. If I did not answer the question you thought you were asking, please respond with the specific question you wanted answered. I hope you found my answer helpful, and you have finished asking your questions, please click on the GREEN ACCEPT button in order to mark the question as closed.
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